Comments on: Never been on a date before?

By: railyardhound

railyardhound — Sun, 09 Jul 2006 15:58:41 +0000

Maggie, if calling guys you’ve never met “dorky” isn’t marginalization, then what is it? You know, placing them in a box and putting them under you…

Guys, even ones that you marginalize, are motivated by a spirit of competition. So the Winners Circle is more about motivation rather than a taxidermy initiation.

By: Bert

Bert — Sun, 02 Jul 2006 14:29:13 +0000

Dear Maggie,

“The Game” isn’t about objectifying women and treating them as chips to be won. What Neil Strauss is doing is almost exactly like the situation in the film “Hitch” or to a lesser degree the movie “40 Year Old Virgin” where the buddies in the film all give creative advice on how to get the girl. And by “get” I mean her heart, not her body.

By: Radical Mutual-Improvement » Blog Archive » The rules for online dating

Sun, 25 Jun 2006 05:49:14 +0000

[...] The Style Life Challenge I wrote about a couple days got an interesting response (see the comments). While we're on the topic, I thought I'd also mention the female-equivalent of male-centric The Game… a book called The Rules, written by Ellen Fein and Sherrie Schneider. They've sold over 2 million copies since 1995, and have built sort of a mini-movement around this book. Most people consider both the books to be rather sexist, misguided, and full of advice that will only work for the most pathetic and desparate people around. I'm not really trying to convince otherwise… but for some reason I find the information in these books to be really fascinating. What's most interesting about these books, to me, is that they're taking something that's traditionally thought of pretty sacred (the search for romance, love, soul mates, marriage, whatever), and turned it into a deliberate set of rules, exercises, and tricks that people who feel frustrated, unhappy, and limited can use to begin to feel empowered, self-confident, and able to impact their own lives for the better. [...]

By: timethief

timethief — Sun, 25 Jun 2006 00:32:11 +0000

Okay so it’s a HUGE stretch. Like Maggie I would have a great deal more faith and be a whole lot less cynical about it if the woman weren’t lined up like a target or prize at the end. Perhaps if the whole effort was being conducted as a self improvement course with female instructors I would be feeling it might have some value but this isn’t the case. It has the “feel” of a phony baloney reality tv and and that sucks. I would also like to say that the presumption that evry woman with a good figure, a brain, a sense of humour and an adventurous spirit is looking for a “Ken doll” is not the case. I know “hot” young women today who actually prefer to seek out and date geekish and shy men. And in fact I met that description myself when I was younger. The result of my search for a meaningful and loving life time long relationship produced a man who was younger and less attractive than I was. He became my friend and remained my freind for months before he “got laid”. Eventually I married him because he was an exceptional and outstanding human being that I knew I would continue to love throughout my life.

By: Pronoia

Pronoia — Sat, 24 Jun 2006 20:26:04 +0000

I agree with you that this is only a few steps away from being truly disgusting, but also a few steps in the opposite direction from being potentially slightly noble. It’s a stretch. As it is, it’s definitely a touchy and potentially harmful topic… I mean, guys are historically the abusers of women and men alike, and to teach men how to better use the unfair share of power that we’ve be portioned will touch nerves. So I understand what you’re saying.

By: maggie

maggie — Sat, 24 Jun 2006 02:28:01 +0000

PS I will totally contradict myself now and say that I do agree with the idea that men should TRY more–like, try to look good and be interesting and approachable. In my dating experience, men have turned all listless and boring and squishy, while we women are still expected to be beautiful and charming and all that. But I just hate this sort of women-as-prey or -trophies sort of mentality. I feel like they are only a few workshops away from stuffing each woman and putting them on the mantle.

By: maggie

maggie — Sat, 24 Jun 2006 01:57:31 +0000

No, I don’t think it cancels it out, I think it is opposite. This stuff takes men who were maybe already on the margin and trys to elevate them at the same time it is turning women into nothing more than a target. “Marginalize” doesn’t just mean to put someone in a box–it means to put them in a box beneath you. I am not familiar with this program but if it is anything like The Game then I don’t see how you can say it is treating women as equals. It is all about scoring the prize. The women themselves are incidental except for as a notch on a scorecard. Even if that is not the intention I feel that’s how it evolved in The Game. I mean, whatever, I don’t care THAT much, I just like to argue. But I don’t feel like this stuff embodies the spirit of your blog or the concept of pronoia. This is gamenoia–the feeling that men are conspiring behind your back to get in your pants. ;)

By: Pronoia

Pronoia — Sat, 24 Jun 2006 01:45:06 +0000

It is a little off-putting that way, but I think the marginalization goes both ways, so maybe it cancels out? After all, he’s addressing the margins with this challenge… trying to get them on the boat with dating and relationships. His intentions are good, aren’t they? They’re talking about a date as simply a planned second meeting with a woman, not an attempt to lie their way into the pants of unsuspecting women. I don’t believe it’s intended to be evil or to treat woman as anything less than equals. But yeah, I also cringed at a few of the word choices.

By: maggie

maggie — Sat, 24 Jun 2006 00:10:40 +0000

Winners Circle? Gross. Women are not prizes! I’m all for dorky guys making themselves look better but I hardly think these methods qualify as “mutual improvement for the greatest good” considering how they marginalize women into something simply to be won and then presumably tossed away when another potential prize comes along. But you already know how I feel on this topic I guess. :p